Curse

Neo-LD · Jun 04, 2007, 04:45 AM // 04:45

I would be agreeable to re-buffing some parts of the old boon prot build; there wasnt anything particularly overpowered about it before, and it is now ecclipsed by several newer templates.

I will, however, disagree with one thing. The boon prot meta was definately not "active monking at its finest." Quite the opposite, it was the all time low. That is, if you define "active monking" like I do. To me, active monking means high priority being given to single-target prot spells, and removals. In the boon prot era, you had monks intentionally not firing their prots or removals, even if they could see a possible spot to use them - unless they could also get a big heal out of them as well. In all cases, the actual effects of the spells (prots and removals) were secondary to the fact that they delivered big heals on 1/4s and 3/4s platforms.

Ever since Boon Prots were nerfed and the bond between healing, protting, and removing has been broken (that is, now each task must be accomplished with a certain spell, instead of one or two spells accomplishing two or three at once) active monking has increased. Monks are much more willing to throw prot where prot is needed, and remove what needs removing, because they are no longer constrained to make sure every spell doesnt grossly overheal. And thats a good thing, especially when you consider that the more modern approach to monking is considerably more difficult and rewarding to those who master it. Boon Prots, after all, were pretty easy comprared to the modern monk templates, and the ones that arose between now and then.

Wasteland Squidget · Jun 04, 2007, 05:02 AM // 05:02

One thing I really like about the new backlines is the way it offered an additional method of breaking a backline - exploiting their cast times and recharge.

With Booned RoF pumping out massive heals on 1/4c/2s, the only ways you could realistically threaten a backline was with energy pressure or spikes. When you got kills against a boon prot backline, it was either because the monks were out of energy, or because you spiked a kill through with 321ing and short-term shutdown (Gale or whatever.) With Gift and other longer cast/recharge spells now acting as the primary heals, it's possible to put out enough damage that the monks can't heal it all, even if they have energy and aren't immediately being knocked down.

Of course, this isn't easy to do, and it takes a lot of effort and coordination to get around the prot. You can't just beat on a single target and hope it dies. However, I like the additional offensive options the GoH-prot backlines provide.

The only thing I really miss about boon prots is how self-sufficent they were. A single boon prot was strong enough to survive on its own, even against KDs and other coordinated attacks. Self-sufficent characters mean better options for tactical play, and I miss being able to split off monks when the situation called.

Div · Jun 04, 2007, 02:13 PM // 14:13

The return of boon prots would make the monk metagame a lot more interesting, as it provides more alternatives. Also, it can serve to partially help reduce the hex problem, as boon prots were much more capable of removing hexes than the current lod/infuse or rc/prot.

What I liked about the boon prots is the fact that they ran guardian...and I am a big fan of active prots like guardian :P

bhavv · Jun 04, 2007, 02:19 PM // 14:19

Im just curious if anyone has tested this boon prot build in HA or GVG:

[skill]reversal of fortune[/skill][skill]guardian[/skill][skill]dismiss condition[/skill][skill]signet of rejuvenation[/skill][skill]signet of devotion[/skill][skill]deny hexes[/skill][skill]divine boon[/skill][skill]scribe's insight[/skill]

It works really well in RA and TA, I wonder how it would work as one of the monk bars in 8 man.

LifesRestorer · Jun 04, 2007, 03:51 PM // 15:51

been running remedy sig instead of rejuv and mend cond instead of dismiss. works alright. the power against hex stacking is immense, though i feel that guardian just isnt enough... maybe it would change with 2 monks in the GvG format. maybe it could be swapped out for some other form of prot. obviously right now they can't match an RC and LoD but i really think that if they were buffed it would work just as good as them, if not better.

Nekretaal · Jun 04, 2007, 04:34 PM // 16:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Apok Omen

To answer the question of why Boonies were nerfed, it was not because they were overpowered. It was because Anet was bored of them. Only reason they waited till Factions to nerf them was for the introduction of BL.

Most skills that are nerfed are nerfed for this reason.

makosi · Jun 04, 2007, 05:19 PM // 17:19

Boon prots were nerfed because it was too common. It wasn't overpowered but very effective and self-sufficient and, as a result, loads of people used boon prots in GvG and arenas.

It's the swiss army pen knife of all monk builds because it had:

-condition removal
-hex removal
-healing
-protection
-energy management

...all on the one skill bar. When a build gets that popular, more people know and understand it and know its weaknessess more so it doesn't have to be nerfed out of its misery. People need buffed.

I remember when all the top (and not-so-top) guilds used a 2 boon prot backline which became stale and predictable but if you look at the skillbars of monks on observer mode GvGs they all have pretty much identical builds. Even when before ZB was nerfed, everyone had the same build with minor exceptions.

TimeToGetIntense · Jun 04, 2007, 11:55 PM // 23:55

Boon itself needs to be buffed back to it's original form for it to be worth a slot. The energy management is there, but Boon itself is crap, especially considering you lose an elite that does something so you can use Boon.

The idea of a P&H buff is great. If it gave 2 pips, that would put it above the old Mantra of Recall and even OoB, though, distributed between 2 Monks.

Another skill that should be buffed is Divine Spirit. The energy gain from it can be pretty awesome, but you can't use it because it's on a 60 second clock. Glyph of Lesser Energy showed that a 30 second clock for energy management is pretty decent though, so why not cut Divine Spirit in half. Halve the energy cost, halve the duration, halve the recharge.

Patccmoi · Jun 05, 2007, 12:57 AM // 00:57

I don't agree with a 2 pips PnH. It would be way too powerful for your 2nd monk who could use another elite and have 6 pips of regen. For example 2 boon-prots with 1 that uses RC and the other backs his energy with PnH... seems too powerful.

Divine Spirit could definitely be tweaked to be less of a gimmick skill though. I'd see it more balanced with something like:

10/.25/10.

For For 1...11..15 seconds, Monk Spells cost you 5 less Energy to cast (Minimum cost: 1 Energy). When this enchant end, it is disabled 4s for every spell cast under its effect.

This way, there would be no abuse of fast recharging it with things like GoR or w/e, and the recharge would be balanced around how much energy it saved you. You cast 5 times? Saved you around 15E (10E activation), and it will have an effective recharge of 30-35s (similar to GoLE).

TimeToGetIntense · Jun 05, 2007, 02:09 AM // 02:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patccmoi

I don't agree with a 2 pips PnH. It would be way too powerful for your 2nd monk who could use another elite and have 6 pips of regen. For example 2 boon-prots with 1 that uses RC and the other backs his energy with PnH... seems too powerful.

Yeah, that's probably true. Well, what if it gave you 2 pips if you casted it on yourself, but any other allies would only get 1 pip?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patccmoi

Divine Spirit could definitely be tweaked to be less of a gimmick skill though. I'd see it more balanced with something like:

10/.25/10.

For For 1...11..15 seconds, Monk Spells cost you 5 less Energy to cast (Minimum cost: 1 Energy). When this enchant end, it is disabled 4s for every spell cast under its effect.

This way, there would be no abuse of fast recharging it with things like GoR or w/e, and the recharge would be balanced around how much energy it saved you. You cast 5 times? Saved you around 15E (10E activation), and it will have an effective recharge of 30-35s (similar to GoLE).

I think that would suck. GoLE is much more efficient by nature. It can't be on-par with it and be viable.

How about just cut in half all the numbers on it? Here's the math on that:

5 energy cost, 30 second recharge, 1/4 activation time

7 second duration at 13 Divine Favor

You can cast exactly 7 quarter second casts in that time, but they all have to be back to back without any delay, so potentially you can save 30 energy...

It wouldn't allow you to efficiently use that saved energy, but it's a lot, so I don't think it would be too powerful.

bhavv · Jun 05, 2007, 02:44 AM // 02:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by LifesRestorer

been running remedy sig instead of rejuv and mend cond instead of dismiss. works alright.

I started with that build too. I prefer sig of reju for a direct 55-110 heal on an ally over remove a condition on yourself. Dissmiss is obviously then needed to remove conditions on you.

Patccmoi · Jun 05, 2007, 10:42 PM // 22:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

I started with that build too. I prefer sig of reju for a direct 55-110 heal on an ally over remove a condition on yourself. Dissmiss is obviously then needed to remove conditions on you.

If you run a condition build, Sig of Malice is the best option on that imo, at least in small arenas. The .25s cast time lets you cast it on recharge if needed without screwing yourself with cast time. 1s cast signets are pretty easy to dshot for rangers and when it happens it screws your emanagement something bad.

TimeToGetIntense · Jun 06, 2007, 04:01 AM // 04:01

Remedy Signet will technically return slightly more energy than Signet of Malice, but I agree on the choice of Signet of Malice because it's only a quarter second longer clock, but not a very good chance it will be disrupted and doesn't waste as much of your time.

So I'd use Signet of Malice even if my team had no conditions and also use Dismiss Condition anyway because Dismiss is a very fat self-heal for a Boon Prot.

Shane Postus · Jun 10, 2007, 04:53 PM // 16:53

We shouldnt buff boonprot because it doesnt work in the meta and the meta never changes! /end sarcasm

So what if it wouldnt see as much us now as it did, or even any use at all. The meta will change to who knows what, perhaps someday the boonprot will be a good (if not the best choice) but we'll never know if we dont have the oppurtunity. My analysis: Can do no harm to buff currently unused skills that were never overpowered to begin with. It can only encourage more diversity, and since theres so many other good choices out there that werent around when boons were kings, i doubt that it will become the one and only monk build again, just a good one thats well rounded. I know id play boon in HoH just for fun because it truly was my favorite build and in my opinion the pinnacle of guild wars builds (not the strongest build but the most versatile, balanced, tactic-encouraging build). No other class, to the best of my knowledge, has equalled the boonprot in the aforementioned attributes.

But thats only my thought on the issue.

Oren The Destroyer · Jun 11, 2007, 08:07 AM // 08:07

I think the only reason they nerfed BP was because a.net wanted you to buy the other chapters for the new skills.../end conspiracy

it still works *decently* tough you have to be careful because you run out of energy fast

Thomas.knbk · Jun 11, 2007, 12:49 PM // 12:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oren The Destroyer

it still works *decently* tough you have to be careful because you run out of energy fast

if your opponent doesn't pressure, and doesn't spike, it's actually OK

Melody Cross · Jun 15, 2007, 06:02 AM // 06:02

I wouldn't trust a 20second recycle energy manager that "had" to be maintained to be of use bhavv. If Enchantments are already "shatterbait" (To coin Ensign's pet phrase) Elite enchantments are chum in the water for the Great White Mesmer sharks.

Mantra of Recall was fine for what it did because you gained energy when it was lost. Even if it was stripped immediacy after you applied it, you still got a return on energy. It hurt, but it didn't cripple you completely. Losing Scribe's insight on the other hand...I have no idea how to fix that skill to make it worth playing in more than a passing fancy sort of way. I'm glad you have success with it, but I really think HA and GvG would find...some considerable holes in your build.

TBH, I am wary of PnH at 10, but I can't see a way to lower its recycle without making it overpowered...if the proposed buffs take place. A lot of people have stated they believe that a change to 2 pips would be overpowered already. I would like to remind them that it would only be overpowered if uptime was not reduced to make it more spam on recycle required. Maintaining it on two monks--even two BProts--should be a stretch for the proposed changes. And factoring 1 second cast time making the elite an easy interrupt in todays meta--and pointing you again to the point I make about elite enchants being special yummy treat to the dom mesmers out there--and I'd probably take the ungimped BoonSig if I had my way...after a while.

Thanks for your comments everyone. It is nice to hear other perspectives on this issue. Even though I may not agree with some of you, I am happy you've posted here and added your thoughts to the discussion.

GGs

RhanoctJocosa · Jul 12, 2007, 01:09 PM // 13:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

To be honest, I don't think it's very relevant to GvG right now. Even if boon prots were restored to their former power, I don't see them becoming popular in most builds.

In the boon prot days, many of the current offenses were weaker, and you could rely on the midline to handle party healing while the monks saved spikes and handled single-target pressure. These days, backlines are very elite-centric - you need that LoD so you don't blow up to degen/AoE, you need that RC so you don't get rocked by the various condition stacking tools. If you don't take those, you're looking at a backline that going to break almost immediately to certain kinds of pressure, and that's going to lose you a lot of games.

I agree, even if boon prots were restored they would get rolled very fast. Imagine KGYU's type of pressure up against 2 boon prot. Yeah.

glountz · Jul 12, 2007, 01:27 PM // 13:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patccmoi

Divine Spirit could definitely be tweaked to be less of a gimmick skill though. I'd see it more balanced with something like:
10/.25/10.
For For 1...11..15 seconds, Monk Spells cost you 5 less Energy to cast (Minimum cost: 1 Energy). When this enchant end, it is disabled 4s for every spell cast under its effect.

Under Glyph of Renewal and a +20% enchant, Divine spirit already can be kept up permanently. And it allow you to spam spells like hell.
Yes it isn't used. Mostly because some Prot elites are too valuable, and because it costs 2 skill slots.
But such a combo is quite better than PnH or Scribe insight, frankly.

Lord Oranos · Jul 15, 2007, 03:16 AM // 03:16

Out of curiosity, I used Auspicious with Mantra of Recall at 10 inspiration, and it gives good energy return. Real good for a boon prot.

Most people dont use the Glyph+Divine Spirit because it is very weak against enchant removal.

Also, I think that if Boon Prots would get popular again, they would be very powerful due to one skill: Dismiss Condition.

Boon turns it into a 150+ heal condition remover.